Medical Care in the USA and the rest of the world!

[Mogdaork]

It is the natural order of the human society for a few people to rise above the rest. Wealth and land are inherited for alot of people, isnt the purpose of attaining to provide a better future for your family ? I seriously hope your not purposing wealth redistrubtion? I disagree with taxing rich people anymore , as they already pay their share. in addtion to providing many jobs. Why punish for success?


Welfare in the US is a joke. The system is so abused you have 3 or 4 generations of familys raised on when they are perfectly able to work. Americans as a nation are flat out lazy. Starting with the youth in this country who feel they are too good to take simple basic jobs just to get experince. The concept of hard working Americans is long gone. I have a friend who has been out of work for at least two years, when I said hey man mcdonalds aint fancy but its paying, his response was I will never work in a mcdonalds his reasoning? its mcdonalds. I was always taught that go for what you want but sometimes your gonna need to be humble and take what you can get.

One of the things Ryan that annoys me with the way the US is right now begins with how easy it is to get a better education in this country. If your below the poverty line you have alot of options. First basic education in this country ( which needs to be overhauled at the moment) is free, we have charter schools and we have magnet schools. Charter schools are doing very well and focus so much on education and preparing the kids for the future. and Magnet schools pulling the best and brightest. A portion of this problem with education in this country falls back on parents. seriously come to philly sometime and I will be more then happy to show you around. the attitude to alot of people in this country is astounding.

Colleges are expensive but then again when Temple (a college in Philly) owns 10% of the city land its kinda easy to understand why they need to charge so much, pays no taxes or uses city services with no charge).

Health Care and Education are two things that go hand in hand. The Fed,state and city goverment are spending billions to keep up the failing Philadelphia School system. The teachers dont want to teach here because the violence is that bad. actually im watching a double stabbing on the news. Private business are starting to take over some of the schools and this is wrong. The Major problem in the US is not Healthcare,Education its the people here. We lost our way, many Americans expect the goverment to take care of everything for them.

[RyanPaddy]

[Mogdaork]

[RyanPaddy]

I've fixed up some of the quotes in your post above, hope you don't mind. The quoting on Shade's is pretty broken at the moment, so I'll reply without quotes this time.

I get the impression that you're saying it's a dog-eat-dog world, and we shouldn't punish people who succeed at that. I have mixed feelings on this. But my main feeling is that I'd like to make it less of a dog-eat-dog world. There used to be a time in Western society, only a few hundred years ago, when a "noble" person could kill a "peasant" or "slave" with little or no repercussions. We have, I think, progressed since then into a more humane and just world. That's what I mean about the breaking down of the class system.

However, we still have a world where some people are born into riches that they have to be stupid to lose, and others are born into poverty that they have to be either extremely smart, lucky, or hardworking to break free from (often, all three). It's highly questionable whether the very rich often "deserve" their wealth, especially if their riches come from taking advantage of natural resources, from selling weapons (which is the world's richest business) or off the back of the poorly-paid toil of others.

So really, I don't feel at all bad about richer people getting taxed more. I don't see any reason to feel bad for people who are extremely comfortable paying a bit extra, because they will still be extremely comfortable even with higher taxes. Likewise I don't feel sorry for them being forced to pay the taxes they should pay by law, instead of being able to avoid the taxes like most rich people find ways to do. It's not really "punishment". And if all civilised countries apoproach this the same way, and tax havens get eliminated, they won't have anywhere else to take their money so will just have to be law-abiding taxpayers like everyone else. In terms of charity to other countries, I'm for it. I'd like to see the developing world get pulled out of poverty. It shouldn't be at the expense of those in poverty in your own country though.

I guess the thing with welfare is that it only pays enough to get by on. Most people, given the opportunity, want more than that. A few will just lounge on next to nothing, but across a whole country that hardly matters because the majority will work to get free of it, if they can. It seems unfair, but it doesn't cost as much as people tend to think when spread across a whole country. And it's better than the alternative of letting people starve.

What you're saying about the negative attitude towards teachers in the US is interesting. Here in New Zealand I'd say that there is probably a bit of a "I'm glad someone else is doing it, because I wouldn't want to" attitude towards teaching. That's mostly because it's not very well paid, but also just the hassle of dealing with classes full of sometimes bratty kids. But on the whole, it's a relatively respected role in society. We don't have the school violence issues you describe. Violence at schools here is rare, apart from some bullying and fighting among kids.

I'm probably going to reveal my ignorance of US tax now. I don't know much about it, only what I hear on the news. Looking at your pay/tax breakdown, it looks like $209.21 of that is personal insurance, and $108.4 of that is tax. So 23% of your pay is going to insurance, and 12% is going to tax? My god that's a low tax rate, and a hell of a lot of insurance. Compared to international tax rates that is - for the US that may be quite normal, I have no idea.

I don't know the precise details of the proposed public healthcare system in the US. But if you went for a proper universal healthcare system (like every other developed country in the world apart from the US), you would no longer have to pay any of that health insurance, and your tax would not go up by anything like 23%. That's because there are vast economies of scale to be had from a public healthcare system versus a private one. Therefore, you'd be better off and have more money for yourself and your family.

You are exactly the person that would benefit from universal healthcare. I can't help feeling that you've been duped somehow into thinking it would be bad for you. I respect your position that you don't want richer people to be taxed more (even though I don't agree with it), but I think you need to realise that you personally would be better off financially if the US had universal healthcare, and probably by a large amount. So if it really is "you and your family first", then you sure have hit hitched yourself to the wrong bandwagen.

[Mogdaork]

hey bro,

I think on alot of things we will have to disagree which is fine I respect your postion and your well stated and thought out counter points.

Now what I left out on purpose is im in a two income family. which will see its insurance rates go up at least 15% as making over 20k a year is considered above the cut off lol,we make 45k total. My familys health insurance is high we added a lot of options but the way it works is if we have 1 kid and two adults it is 209.21, but if we had like 6 kids it would still be the same lol.

Im against Goverment run healthcare for other reasons, I do not want the goverment in my business and i am for smaller goverment, the cost is a big issue as is the abuse of the system alot of other minor things too like people who smoked 20yrs and now complain about cancer lol. Either way ryan I have a pukin child to attended. say hi on aim

[RyanPaddy]

Cool, thanks for the interesting chat. It's always nice to hear other perspectives.

I haven't got my head around the proposed reforms, so couldn't really comment on whether your health costs would be going up anyhow. But ideally, if universal healthcare was being implemented well, they wouldn't.

A lot of it probably comes down to the details of the specific laws and institutions. For example, an Italian once told me that their taxes were very high but their public services quite poor. I suspect this is because of massive corruption and inefficient bureaucracy. Whereas here in NZ, we have very little corruption and moderately efficient bureaucracy. Our taxes are less than Italy, and our services probably better.

Without commenting on efficiency in US services (because I don't know about it), it seems fair to say that I pay less of a percentage of my wages in tax than you do in tax & healthcare, while possibly getting just as good or better better service for it across the public services & healthcare. So as with anything, the execution of the idea is just as important as the quality of the idea itself.

[drknow]

I Live in Canada and I can tell you for a fact thank god for our Medicare system. I had an accident at my business with no insurance, I had a fight with a table saw and lost my index finger and most of my thumb, they used the index what was left and reconstructed my thumb and it looks like new. I just had to pay for the ambulance to the hospital and some medicine afterward. Years latter I caught an infection in the lungs from mouse droppings, and was in intensive care for a few days. I just had to pay for the ambulance trip. I have two boys always something was happening I was at the hospital at least 1 a month for a while. I did not have to pay for the ambulance, I drove . but paid a lot for parking . The hole thing is here in Canada we where born into this, for us it is nothing. I always said I would hate to live in the states because your gong to lose your house or get sewed. One of the other. Trust me somebody sewed my father in states for something completely stupid. But in the states it is business as usual from what a lot of Americans have told me. I even heard a lot of camping grounds are closing because they can’t afford the insurances because somebody is sewing for something. The last story I heard was a little girl fell off a swing and chipped her tooth and the parent sewed the park for a crazy amount and won , that was in upper New York state near Plattsburg . If that happened here in Canada ,we would just forget about it and most people would not even think of it ,if you went out of the way to sew a park or something over accident that your child got her or himself into and tried to sew you would get some really dirty looks , just go to the hospital or the dentist that’s it nothing to it. But we have everything else like the US, we can make a lot of money , what we buy is ours, we are free as all we can be. It is just we have lots of regulations and pay higher taxes. Even with regulations people will fine ways of scamming and getting into trouble, the down fall the people that really should be sewed hard.. I mean hard, get away with it ,lot of times. So Here it is ,Canada is capitalistic economic system based on free enterprise. Therefore, it is impossible it is socialistic country. And concerning our Medicare system, no it is not perfect but as they say… you give your left arm then they will take the other arm and both your legs but from my experience TTTTTThank Good For Medicare. But the sad thing is the Americans’ are steeling all our doctors away, dam you all lol, even my ex was a registered nurse well guess where she is after she graduated , in the states.

[Eldrad]

Well the Obama plan that was so opposed by the Republicans "becuz it was socialism DUH!" is nothing more than FORCED INSURANCE.

Hopefully with some of the plan it will get better for us over here. No matter what the stupid two parties won nothing, the medical insurance companies got forced insurance, and the people most likely lost out. We will have to see.

We still have dumbasses over here saying we got socialist democrat communist medical care. So many ignorant idiots here in the USA. Just watch next set of elections! The sheeple of the USA will vote back in the Republicans! I say VOTE NEITHER PARTY! THEY ALL SUCK! Vote in someone who is loyal to country not party.

As a very pissed off Republican I really pissed off on how much my party leadership and our conservative media liars had stupidly defended the medical system over here in the USA.

What the F#@$ are you defending?

I thought that the democrats may have actually be on the right track and give us universal health care. But no we got forced insurance.

The medical insurance bought them out as well. Democrats and Republican leadership all bitches to the insurance companies.

My biggest questions of all questions.

Where does the money go when it is paid to insurance companies?

What would our medical system be like if all that money stayed in the medical system and did not go into the coffers of the medical insurance companies?
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I know the pieces fit! I watched them fall away!

[BaronBlackRose]

Honestly no matter which party is in power. We all lose. Poliicians are only in it for themselves and to lord it over us all. Obama is as much a communist as the republicans are a bunch of nazis. As far as healthcare goes. No comment.
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Just when you thought the worse was over. Here I am. :0)

[Eldrad]

Wait you did comment.
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I know the pieces fit! I watched them fall away!

[BaronBlackRose]

[quote="Eldrad"]Wait you did comment.[/quote]

Only about politicians. Still no comment about healthcare.
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Just when you thought the worse was over. Here I am. :0)

[drknow]

What I love about the American politics it is like watching wwf wrestling compare to the Canadian politics , snorrrrr. So you have two very aggressive sides. I have to hand off my hat to Obama he jumped right into it ,man he’s got guts, he took everything on his back and he is a very focused man , I was laughing my head off the they way everybody was reporting about what he had done in the first year, man I have some project that has taking me over a year to do and still not done ,this guy is running a country, man I feel really small.

[BaronBlackRose]

[quote="drknow"]What I love about the American politics it is like watching wwf wrestling compare to the Canadian politics , snorrrrr. So you have two very aggressive sides. I have to hand off my hat to Obama he jumped right into it ,man he’s got guts, he took everything on his back and he is a very focused man , I was laughing my head off the they way everybody was reporting about what he had done in the first year, man I have some project that has taking me over a year to do and still not done ,this guy is running a country, man I feel really small. [/quote]

Lets make a correction. WWE you mean. Since the royal family and their World wildlife Fund won in court against the McMahons for the WWF label. Otherwise yeah very true. Although I would rather watch the english parliament then congress. the rest is as I said. kein Kommentar!
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Just when you thought the worse was over. Here I am. :0)

[drknow]

Thanks for the update , i should of consulted with my wife on that subject but that would of meant extra work around the house

[BaronBlackRose]

[quote="drknow"]Thanks for the update , i should of consulted with my wife on that subject but that would of meant extra work around the house [/quote]

LOL no problem.
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Just when you thought the worse was over. Here I am. :0)