Making latex weapons

[RyanPaddy]

I've heard this idea about thinning liquid latex with ammonia before, and I think it's wrong.

Liquid latex only contains a trace amount of ammonia, and the ammonia is used as a preservative not a thinner. The difference between a thick or thin liquid latex is the amount of water in it, not the amount of ammonia.

Typical liquid latex is around 65% water, but less then 0.3% ammonia.

Source: http://www.mbhs.edu/departments/magnet/coursesandlife/RandE/matsci/2000-pd2/todd.html

[Rraurgrimm]

Thus it is quite common to thin latex with water - of course it becomes more 'runny' that way so be careful - and give it some time to dry. A hairdryer with a cool-setting might help (warm-dry for some time but be careful that it does not get too hot). If done careful enough the last few layers of watered down liquid latex can help to create a very smooth surface.
_________________
"Like the moon goddess on her path eternal..."

rraurgrimm at googlemail dot com

[molotov02]

[molotov02]

Latexing

Needed:
Latex
Ammonia (No pure ammoniac).
Brush(es), recommended are thin brushes of 2.5 cm to 0.5 cm (1 to 0.2 inch)
Tweezers
Hairdryer (optional)
Acrylic paint (Games workshop warhammer paint works great)
Mixing bowl / plate
Bison tix glue
Mixing stick(s)
Kitchen paper
Old glas jar


Global sequence
1 layer of bison tix.
2 make latex in the mixing bowl
3 smear the weapon thinly with the latex
4 remove latex lumps with the tweezers
5 dry
6 repeat steps 3, 4 & 5 until there are 8 layers on the weapon
7 base colour (usually black)
8 repeat steps 3, 4 & 5 until there are 3 layers of base colour.
9 final colour
10 repeat steps 3, 4 & 5 with the final colour until your happy with the colour. Should be about 2 to 4 layers

Description of every step

Step 1 – layer of Bison Tix
Smear in the weapon with bison tix to make the latex stick better. This must be a thin layer, so smear it as thin and evenly out as possible. Make sure that there are no lumps. Every lump and bump will show on the finished product.

Step 2 – make latex
latex straight out the bottle is just a little to treacle for smearing right. Therefore it should be diluted somewhat. You can do this with ammonia from the DIY store (this is 5% ammoniac, the rest is water)
Put some latex in the mixing bowl. More the bowl a bit and you’ll see that the latex does move, but does not really flows. Mix in a little bit of ammonia (about a tablespoon). Now you’ll see that if you move the bowl, the latex is fluid. When you tip the bowl sideways, the latex should flow immediately. The produced latex should be all white (except when using black latex)
Step 3 – smear in the weapon thinly.
Now you smear in the weapon with the latex. Do this by applying the latex with a brush. Make sure you do not apply the latex to thick, because this fill form into drops on the other side.
It shouldn’t be a problem to divide the weapon into two pieces during the latexing (you have to hold it somewhere). Do switch every time between the parts and make a small overlapping piece between the layers.
When you’re done with the applying, put the brush inside a glass jar with ammonia to prevent it from drying. After step 4, you have time to clean the brush properly.
When smearing the latex, make sure the brush never gets ‘dry’; always have some latex on the brush itself when smearing. Smearing dry will result in many lumps.

Step 4 – remove latex lumps
Before letting the latex dry, remove all lumps with a tweezer. These will form lumps and bubbles when dried.
Make sure you remove the bits without damaging the foam or latex layer under it.

Step 5 – drying
You can probably already see the drying process. The latex will loose its white colour and dries to a yellowish, transparent colour. You can speed up this process by blow-drying it with a hairdryer, but this is not recommended for the first layers.

You’ll notice that the latex dries to a yellowish colour. Sometimes, some parts will remain more white-ish. That means that on those spots the latex is not yet completely dry. You can latex over it, but be careful not to give to much pressure with the brush.

The drying process will vary to the temperature, and will take about 20 to 60 minutes. With a hairdryer this will take 2 to 5 minutes of active blowing. When using a hairdryer, make sure the distance between the hairdryer and the weapon is about 10 cm (4 inches)

Step 6 – repeat
Now repeat steps 3, 4 & 5 until there are 8 layers of latex. Be thorough, make sure there are no latex lumps or dropformings.

Step 7 – ground colour
The selection of the ground or base colour depends on the final colour of the weapon.
For wood or metal black is recommended.
For any dark final colours black is recommended.
For any lighter final colours, use white. Although this means you need not mix in any paint, just use normal latex.
When mixing colour, do not use more then a few drops. The final colour when dried will be darker then what you see when the colour is mixed.

Step 8 - repeat
Apply the base colour in three to four layers. When you do not need a base colour, just apply three to four normal layers of latex.

Step 9 – final colour
(Again) make some latex. Now the most difficult part; getting the right colour. It is highly recommended that you use a small piece of foam or card board for testing purposes.

Do not make the final colour to light. When the colour becomes to dark you can easily make it lighter. Making it darker is much harder.

To get the colours, mix the following paints;
Steel; chainmail, mithril silver, black
Zilver; chainmail, mithril
Gold; burnished gold and/or shining gold with a little black
Wood; scorched brown, (optional) a little black
Grey; black, white
For primary colours, just use the colours themselves.
For other colours it is a bit or a trail/error process.

Sidenotes;
To clean a brush;
Before latexing; dip it in some soap. This will decrease the amount of latex sticking to the brush.
Clean the brush using a fine comb is also very practical.
Leaving it in a jar with ammonia (without letting it touch the bottom) will also help to minimise the latex lumps
use a fresh brush for the details.

To make wood nerves;
Follow the normal procedure, make the final colour black or very dark brown. The very last layer of latex must then be light brown. This layer must be done very quickly and in one go. As soon as the layer is applied, use a comb to make grooves. Do not do this more then once or you’ll ruin the effect.
The tips of canes come out best if you place the comb with one point in the centre, then turn a circle.

Tip for drying;
Bind the weapon with a piece of rope or string at the handle and let it hang to dry.


With much thanks to the QeQuoia group for creating the original instructions.

[RyanPaddy]

[Chief]

I use only water for thinning the latex, and I can swear by it. Also for the primer layer [if you live in the U.S.]I use DAP Neoprene [green can] forumal contact cement. It is easy to spread, does not cause build up, and sticks like mad.
_________________
Nothing beats a friend like a rubber sword...

[molotov02]

[RyanPaddy]

Ammonia is NH3, a gas.

What you're talking about is probably ammonium hydroxide, NH4OH, which is also known as "ammonia water", which is ammonia in a water solution. But that's also known in common language as ammonia, which is probably where the confusion arises. Ammonium hydroxide is used as a fertiliser, cleaning agent, etc. That's the stuff you can get in a DIY store.

"Ammoniac" just means something relating to ammonia. To say that "ammonia has ammoniac in it" or that "you shouldn't use pure ammoniac" doesn't make any sense. It would make more sense to say "use ammonia diluted in water, called ammonium hydroxide. Don't use pure ammonia, as that's a gas at room temperature, not to mention highly pungent and alkaline, and will float away as soon as you open it because it's lighter than air."

I've just realised that the link to the article on liquid latex I gave above was broken. I've fixed it, and here it is again: http://www.mbhs.edu/departments/magnet/coursesandlife/RandE/matsci/2000-pd2/todd.html - it's pretty clear from the article that ammonia is only used as a preservative in liquid latex. I still think that the use of it as a thinner has resulted from a misunderstanding of how liquid latex works.

I've used water to dilute latex, and it worked perfectly. Given how much cheaper and more easily available water it is than ammonium hydroxide, and how I think that someone has made a mistake about how liquid latex works, I think I'll carry on using just water.

[molotov02]

aah, much clearer now.
sorry, indeed got the translation wrong.
good its sorted out now.

[TraconEdgar]

Now that I've completed latexing my weapons, I think I'll ask if it makes much of a difference if I paint on latex straight from the mold builder bottle vurses thinning it down with water. Does it affect the hardness of the weapon, or is it just a cosmetic thing if the latex is on thicker?
_________________
Edgar(at)realmsoftracon.com

http://www.realmsoftracon.com

[RyanPaddy]

It doesn't effect the hardness as far as I know. I believe the water evaporates out when the latex cures.

What it effects is usability of the latex for various purposes:
- For dipping, you need a really watery latex or you'll get runs.
- For painting on with a brush, it's a matter of personal preference. I think in the UK they water it down a lot and then brush on 12-15 thin layers. I think the advantage is that you don't get brush marks in the latex with more watery latex. But personally I used thicker stuff for brushing, only put on a few layers, and just put up with the brush marks.
- Also for making latex masks in a negative mold, you can either put lots in runny, then pour it out later leaving a thin film, or you can paint it on thicker. I think the pros pour it in, but i think that needs a lot of latex.

I've played with each of these methods but I'm not an expert.

[Chief]

You can go right out of the pot if you like. I tend to do my first few layers raw out of the pot, and then finish my base coats and colors with thinned latex. I thin it mostly because the paint adds a bit of thickness, gooeyness, etc. The trick is really thin and even coats. I have seen people use thick latex and work it until it is thin, and I have seen people use really thin layers.

If you let the latex build up too thick it will reduce the flexibilty of the coating and it might cause a tear, nothing you can't fix.
_________________
Nothing beats a friend like a rubber sword...

[TraconEdgar]

A couple things I learned making my first batch of Latex weapons for others out there who will be making a first attempt:

DAP glue and foam:

Chances are the first time you'll put it on too thick. I thought I didn't have it on thick, but in reality it was. You don't want any areas where you can visibly see fluid dap on the foam. After you let the glue set for about ten minutes, it may not even be sticky to the touch. But fear not - If you put two pieces of foam together and apply pressure, they will indeed stick! And it's a really good bond. You can even let the glue set for thirty minutes, and it will still stick. It's good stuff.

Hard Hitting Upgrade

In my opinion, the extra strip of plastazote around the weapon is not necessary. I tried pulling apart the foam from a scrap of plastazote. The foam actually fails before the glue does. If you tear two pieces of Dapped plastazote from each other, the glue layer will remain intact, and what you will have is a failure in the structure of the plastazote itself, not in the glue. And so, it does not appear that the extra strip of foam around the weapon is necessary.

Sealing

For sealing the weapon, I used ProFlex RV Clear Brushable roof sealant. On the can it says it is fibered for strength. I called the company, and found out that the fibers are polyester fibers, so there is no worry about splinters from the sealant. (At first I was worried that the sealant was fibered with fiberglass! That would sting a bit!)

I used plastic cups (the Solo brand disposable picnic/camping cups) for all my mixing. They work fine for mixing latex and paint. However, the roof sealant will MELT the cups! It doesn't melt latex, however. So you may want to prepare a sealant cup in advance by applying a coat of latex to the inside of one of your cups.


Modification theories:

For my next batch of weapons, I may try gluing on an inch or two of open cell foam to the tip of the weapon to make it more stabbing friendly. Anybody ever seen or tried this? How does the latex on the tip fare? Does it hold it's form well, or does it start to look pretty bad after an event or two?

Well, that's all I can think of for now...
_________________
Edgar(at)realmsoftracon.com

http://www.realmsoftracon.com

[Chief]

You will find that when you fight with the non-upgrade weapons that the DAP will come free, and the layers will start to float inside the latex. The latex will hold the weapon together, and the core is not exposed, but it will happen. In most cases it happens right in the sweet spot where you hit people, and everywhere else on the weapon the DAP and foam are connected like a rock. Granted, this often takes a few sessions to start to happen, and as much as 6 months before it becomes a problem.

It also depends how big your blades are. Short squat blades hold up a lot better due to the surface area on the gluing surfaces.

However, whatever works for you is always the best way to go.

If you do put open cell on the weapon you need to cover it with something [cloth, fabrix tape] or when the foam compresses the latex will stick to itself on the inside.

Either way, eventually [and on swords very soon] the tip will break, fall off, or otherwise suck Remember that the deflective tip is in the design so the weapon can thrust, and still have proper padding to protect the target from the core. Open cell stabbing tips just don't do much to stop thrusts.
_________________
Nothing beats a friend like a rubber sword...

[Kennin]