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Shade's LARP List :: View topic - Newbie to boffers
On another level my oppinion on DrowsyTroll's and Nolanvoid's swords is pretty clear (as a finnish larper, GM and national secretary of security and safety matters). Both are unsafe to be used and in contradiction with Finland's boffer standards.
[sarcasm]
And yes, we're impressed with your majestic title of finlandishness,
really, its not just sarcasm
in fact, we want to have your children and live in your LARP utopia
[/sarcasm]
>> More to the point I would classify them as latex weapons because they
>> use solid fiberclass sticks as core (never mind about the origin of
>> golf), glue their material in layers and they have no extra padding on >> the sharp end for thrusts. Latex is merely a finishing thouch - not a
>> defining characteristic of its weapon construct type. They have more >> incommon with latex weapons than boffers and should be therefore
>> compared to them.
>
> I do put soft foam thrusting tips on my weapons, and obviously you
> know nothing of golf, golf clubs are carbon fibre, and HOLLOW.
I admit to being unclear about this. Golf clubs truly are hollow and mostly made of carbon fibre (how silly of me to mix these two fibres) but they still have more in common with fiberclass sticks than the pvc pipes and tubes used in common (or as I know them) boffers.
> none of my ends are "sharp" I even go through the trouble of putting a
> rubber cap with some breadth so that impact is spread out should it
> miraculously break out of the weapon
Again I seem to be unclear to you. "Sharp end" as in the other end of the sword which usually points to opponent. Putting a cap is good (more than some do - referring to some latex swords) but it still is a small thing compared to boffer's - as seen for instance in the construct which eldrad was referring to (www.realmsnet.net). "Miraculously" is just another word for "accidentally" and safety is about limiting the possibilities for accidents. I'd be very wary about anyone who doesn't acknowledge a potential hazard. As far as I know, thrusting is generally not approved with latexes anywhere - do you approve it?
> Its a wonder how progress happens when a blind eye is turned on
> others' methods
To what are you implying with this? Where did I write that inventing is bad? I do believe I stated the opposite. I must be writing gibberish since I'm so misunderstood. My deepest apologies. The point I trying to make was that if you are experimenting with something, anything, it is not wise to take in general use without extencive testing. And even then it might not mix well nad/or safely with other latex and/or boffer constructs.
> Have you TRIED making a weapon with these styles? and tried in
> earnest? not a half-assed well its gonna fail so im not going to try very
> hard attitude?
> once you have, get back with me
So your point is that since it hasn't been done yet there can be nothing wrong with it? Or that none can see flaws or hazards with it before having it in hand? Are you trying to say that having it in hand would negate all concerns?
No, I truly haven't made one and it wasn't lack of trying or interest. I personally just don't have any use for one - there isn't a game nearby that where I would need it or could use it. This isn't about weather your construct type is "good" or "bad", this is about trying to set the point of comparison right. As I said: any game can use anything the GM chooses to use as a weapon/simulation type - I'm sure your weapontype has several uses all around.
>> On another level my oppinion on DrowsyTroll's and Nolanvoid's swords
>> is pretty clear (as a finnish larper, GM and national secretary of
>> security and safety matters). Both are unsafe to be used and in
>> contradiction with Finland's boffer standards.
> [sarcasm]
> And yes, we're impressed with your majestic title of finlandishness,
> really, its not just sarcasm
> in fact, we want to have your children and live in your LARP utopia
> [/sarcasm]
"Ah sarcasm, nice, yummy, tasty [burbh]... I'd have more, please"
I'll wear rags and cover myself in ashes after this - my god, I truly write incoherent things since you have so much trouble understanding. You can not possibly have any fault in this.
Out of context it is as you see it - my lack of humbleness. I apalogize - thus humbling myself - about this presentation I give of myself and Finland in out of context
Did you just read the parts interesting you or why did you miss the idea of me putting my oppinion in the frame it should be seen? Did you skip the part where I wrote (yes, repetition is the mother of all learning - have more) about how in different places larpers use different weapontypes (sometimes several!)?
"In the utopia called Finland", unlike most countries it seems, has developed pretty nice unanimous/homogenous thoughts about safe gaming. After so long testing it is pretty safe to say they might be some of the goodones. This is not to say there aren't other thoughts and ways aswell.
It is very late at night when I'm writing this so I do ask: Am I being clear enough?
*
ps. I can give pointers, oppinions, make educated quesses and correct obvious mistakes in thinking/knowledge. It is not my nor anybody elses place in these posts to judge your weapons one way or the other- players/partisipants ultimately do that. If used wrong, anything is dangerous. If used right, anything may be OK. Take a look of the five points of weapon safety.
Once you have, get back with me.
I'll be happy to debate them _________________ * Your reality is what you imagine it to be *
So your point is that since it hasn't been done yet there can be nothing wrong with it? Or that none can see flaws or hazards with it before having it in hand? Are you trying to say that having it in hand would negate all concerns?
I would reply YES.
If you don't try it first-hand you can't see the real flaws of it.
And I'm talking by experience. How many of you would allow people to use bamboo sticks as cores for boffer weapons? I'm sure none of you would.
And I didn't allow it either, until I build the first one by myself.
When the bamboo is at the right level of maturation (not green neither dead, but plain yellow wood) it's much, much, MUCH more resistant, lightweight, sturdy and yet flexible than PVC or fiberglass. It doens't break, and doesn't bend as much as fiberglass. It's lighter, and if a weapons is lighter it hurts less. I had to try it on myself before accepting it, but now I can say bamboo sticks are more than ok.
And for those who wonder, it doesn't break as much as fiberglass does. If you force it to break (bending it by force), there are no "flying pieces" as often people say about bamboo: break a bamboo and you'll see that its fibers keep intact and glued to the stick. bamboo is not like other kinds of wood. _________________ Lo Zeno
-----------
OuT Of mY MiNd. BaCk iN FiVe mInUtEs,
Ay, right you are LoZeno - "if you don't ry it firs hand you can't see the real flaws" ;) I agree that hands on testing usually reveals many and more central hazards. IMHO it is usually this way and proving something safe like that is much more seldom.
Testing such as was suggested does indeed clarify things, but it is not always needed. This not to say that special exceptions happen but that technical planning (locate problem -> fix it or re-design) and evalueting those plans is a grand method to use before hands-on testing.
Not to be misunderstood, I too do think the excitement of doing instead of thinking (as funny as it sounds ;-) is more fun. So, let's not start a debate about wich method is better.
About that bamboo: have you any idea what it was excatly? How old, how moist, when cut, where to get...? A pic perhaps? I had some vague idea about how it might act but it is probably impossible to get good bambu up here north :-/ Do you have any idea how well did it maintain it's qualities in the long run? What was the weight per length? (Sorry about the numerous questions but you intriquet my interest :-)
* _________________ * Your reality is what you imagine it to be *
me and my friends use bamboo boffers in practice, i have a store here that has them, they are stiff as hell and wont brake if you first put a layer of ducttape on them before putting on the foam.
the main problem as i see it is thrusting, getting myself nocked around by heavy/hard sword doesnt concern me much just protect head neck and groin before goin into the fray...
However!
thrusting
thrusting is a VERY essential part of hand to hand combat, i want to be able to thrust without using american dildoboffers, so the problem is how do you do a safe realistic tip, and when i mean realistic i mean it should look like a sword.
Ottosson:
It's difficult to measure what you mean with heavy and stiff but...
Heavy and stiff raise concerns to me since they directly effect to the possible hazard/damage in impact in fights. Agreed, speaking about weight is choise between light "fairy-swords" and slightly more realism. Finding the right balance between these two is hard and mostly a matter of oppinion. Too heavy is dangerous though - force used increases dramaticly.
Nobody likes too wobbly/bendy swords but stiff core is a hazard as well. On impact the force is relayed to target fully unless the core (weapon) gives in.
Breaking is somewhat a security feature: it tells that you used (dangerously) too much force. I'd prefer the core to snap and sword to brake before bones and people. The thig is that the core should brake safely (i.e. no sharp edges or shards, preferably "bends" in two).
About thrusting:
From physics perspective, dangers of thrusting are sharp tearing edge and the force that is spread on a relatively small area. These are more ore less the same components as in any other weaponhazards but should be emphasized here IMHO.
The edge - even though we are talking about boffers and/or latexes here - needs to be kept in mind. It may be OK under normal conditions but it changes as the core pushes towards it. Therefore the end of the core must be shielded so that it can not (over time) eat its way through (f.ex. putting a rubber cap as sugested by NolanVoid).
Since no large "dildo-head" is wanted, it is very difficult to come up with any way of distributing force on a larger area on impact (which would limit damage and almost eliminate possibility of penetration damage). Thus force must be absorbed other ways.
Since the opponent shouldn't absorbe impact force (allthough mostly does) that leaves three others in the equation: protective gear, other opponent and weapon (here: a sword). Protective gear works basicly as a redistributor of impact forces but I assume proper total covering gear was not in mind. The hand wealding the weapon can also absorb some of the impact force - this is a matter of sportsmanship and fighting styles/rules.
A sword can not absorb much force from impact since it is rigid from impact perspective - in all but name the opponent is colliding with a good length of pipe/stick. That collition only has a small patch of soft foam in between in latexes and "non-dildos" (that patch has microsize absorbing capability). So, we're running out of options fast and need to work with these two.
How about adding foam? Doesn't work after a couple of centimeters/inches since it would just bend away and all was for nought. You could probably strengthen the sides of the foam but it would lead to somewhat odd shapes "heads" if the whole blade isn't extra padded as well. And it would increase weight in the far end which should be avoided since that makes other hits more dangerous. The sword must somehow still absorb, retract....
Just hypothesizing here but if the core could be build somehow to retract in it self somewhat like an antenna and then return to shape by a spring, it might do the trick. This could be a special device build/attached to the far end of the corepipe/stick or more drasticly the core could go alittle ways inside the handle in same method. There might be some difficulties figurin out how to put the foam around the core though since it has to have room to let the core move along its length.
Anyone get the picture?
* _________________ * Your reality is what you imagine it to be *
The bamboo I've been using since that day is one I make grow in my own garden, I cut them when they are 3 years grown and let them dry up for over 3 month. It gets just perfect. I don't know the weight, since i do not have any now to weigh, but my first sword is 2 years old and is still perfect despite having been used for a massive amount of time. Same ad the first day. _________________ Lo Zeno
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OuT Of mY MiNd. BaCk iN FiVe mInUtEs,
For the foam tip for camp pad/ latex weapons I'v already worked on... consider this...
take a 2 inch wide strip of camp pad, by say, 10 inches... cut a v shaped notchdown the length, in the middle.. so that it can fold together...not completely though..
cut another notch in the middle of the 10 inches....going the other direction...
so that if you look at it, it looks like a long rectangle, with a cross in it..through the middle of both directionscut a peice of open cell foam into the shape of your tip, but smaller by a little bit..
take a latex glove... a surgical glove works fine.. cut patches out of it to get a large piece of latex... hard to do butyou should be able to... lightly glue the pieces, one each to the flat sides of the foam tip.... now use impact glue to glue the camp pad over the tip and edge of the foam...and glue that to the tip of the weapon...
once latex is applied, you have a tip that has give, and is re-enforced by the camp pad strip, and still has your blade shape. you could, I suppose run the tip part all the way down the length of the blade... ( reducing the width of the rest of the camp pad foam, so you dont end up with a exaggerated blade size..) because it is a smooth surface, and making sure the blade part is smooth is a hard part of making such a weapon.
the tip has some give to it, and as long as you dont make the open cell foam part over, oh say 2-3 inches, it wont fold over when you thrust with it, only compress back into itself
that should let you have a nice thrusting tip on a latex weapon.
this also works with camp pad weapons without latex applied... I choose to puncture holes in the "glove sides" on the tip, so it compresses a bit easier, though.. but then I cover those type of weapons with nylons, in 2 layers.. spray glued to it, to stay smooth, and prevent runs in them. ( usually 2 nylons per weapon) and then airbrush it to give it color and design. pretty cheap solution, really.
here is a VERY crude drawing of how the stip of camp pad should look...
i suck at drawing...
NolanVoid:
Seeing your construckt I'm even more convinced that it is very close to being latex type. I'm slightly surpriced that you haven't seen the effort to finnish them with it. But that's another matter. The piscture was a bit small to understand how you intended to use it but was it similar than in these pictures? These are from a general latex making guide by a finn Mika Mäntylä and they discribe the layered (three foam pads - same as camp pad I suppose) construct around the knifes corestick.
http://www.rajakatsefantasia.fi/larp/lateksi/kuva1.gif http://www.rajakatsefantasia.fi/larp/lateksi/kuva2.gif http://www.rajakatsefantasia.fi/larp/lateksi/kuva3.gif
I try to clarify this because all in all it merely seems to add a bit more foam. All good but is it enough to make a difference? (also: what is enough of a difference? how to measure it? how to define what is "safe enough"...?)
* _________________ * Your reality is what you imagine it to be *
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- have more) about how in different places larpers use different weapontypes (sometimes several!)?
