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Shade's Live Action Role Playing (LARP) List: Forums
Shade's LARP List :: View topic - Newbie to boffers
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject: Newbie to boffers
Hi everyone,
I've never made a 'boffer' type sword before and though I've read some postings and tutorials on the web, these tend to be very european/american centric and I would like to clear up some details on construction and materials used.
As I understand it, their are 4 main parts to a boffer sword (feel free to correct me),
1. The core: the solid centre running the length of the sword
2. The padding: the soft stuff wrapped around the core to create the 'edge'
3. The crossbar: another solid bit attached perpendicular to the core, acting as a handguard
4. The tip: either attached to the top of the padding or the core to make 'thrusting' safer
Now I've heard the core being made of graphite/ex-golfclubs, pvc-piping and wood. While I understand what a golf-clubs and wood are , I'm unsure what you define pvc-piping as. It sounds like a safe, affordable choice, but looking at a hardware store a saw a large selection of platic pipes of various sizes (and various uses). Could someone tell me what the pvc-pipe used in their boffer swords looks like, it's size, diameter, colour, anything!
With the padding I've heard of people using various kinds of 'foam', some kind of plumbing material (!?) and pool-noodles. I've seen two kinds of pool-noodles, those that are hollow cored and those that are not, which to people prefer? (I assume the hollow). Do you recommend pool-noodles for padding at all or something else?
As with crossbars, what material should be used for this? For looks I assume it should be thicker than the core. What it the most effective way to attach it to the core? (Will probably depend on what the core/crossbar is made of).
Lastly, the tip. I know some boffers don't have this (and some LARPs don't allow 'thrusting'). I've heard of using tennis-ball hemispheres on top of the padding to putting corks on the end of your core. What is recommened (should I bother with a tip at all) ?
Joined: May 07, 2003 Posts: 97 Location: Kentucky, USA
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:26 am Post subject:
The pvc pipe the larps in my area use is 1/2" interior diameter pipe. It should fit snugly into 5/8" wall insulation foam, or the interior of a hollow pool noodle.
Our tips are made by duct taping a penny over the open end of the core and then taping a 2" open cell foam block (the kind of foam they use in seat cushions) onto the end of the weapon over the penny. You have to make sure you punch several pin holes in the tap covering the foam tip so that the tip can breathe and compress properly.
As for whether you need a tip, you should talk to a Safety Guide at the larp you plan on playing at to see if they allow thrusting and what the specifications of their wseapons are.
Joined: Sep 21, 2003 Posts: 98 Location: Vantaa, Finland
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:11 am Post subject:
Nolan, your construction is slightly less well padded then a boffer made with our standard instruction (we have about twice the padding to the sides), and does not have the dubious qualities of already once broken golf clubs. I'd think long and hard before allowing a weapon made by your instructions to any LARP I'd run. The core could be replaced with a PVC-pipe, and added layers (preferably thicker solid blocks of foam, since gluing adds hardness) to the sides would alleviate most of my concerns.
To Anthraxus' instructions I would add a layer of split padding tube to each cutting edge to simulate at least some shape, and further pad the normal striking surface. Also, remember that the crossguard needs to be fully padded as well.
To both I'd add padding (and perhaps open cell foam tips) to pommels of swords as well, since they tend to come into contact with ones opponent in the heat of battle (and knocking someone upside the head with a pommel just looks and feels cool )
but as for the sides, its an absurd argument saying there isnt enough padding, the width of the blade distributes the force of the impact, if anything , the edge could hurt more because of the smaller surface area
also don't forget the mass of the weapon plays a large factor in how much it can hurt a person, PVC weapons can be quite heavy.
and about the"dubious quality" of once broken golf clubs, haha
the ends are sawed clean, and the tip is covered with a rubber bouncy ball
the danger is near zero% which makes it as good as new, else the argument is, "well the tree's top broke off, so we can't use the trunk for wood."
but also remember, that you can kill someone with pretty much anything, its up to the user to play safely
Joined: May 07, 2003 Posts: 97 Location: Kentucky, USA
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:16 am Post subject:
I've played in games with weapons constructed with Nolan's style and they work, and I allow them in my games after passing a safety test.
The method I posted was merely the recommended construction technique for my games. We'll let anyone bring in a new technique to be safety tested. If it passes then it is allowable. We test each weapon individually before each game for safety, so we have a good degree of latitude in allowable styles, as long as they are safe.
I also forgot to mention the required open cell pommell cap.
I was messing around with some ideas and I came up with an interesting idea to make the boffer's "blade". I'd just like to run it by everyone first to see if they've got any suggestions and/or point out any flaws before I try to build it. I whipped up some illustrations (below) to clarify each step.
This doesn't cover how I plan to make the core/handgaurd/pommel part.
1. The idea is based on using a pool-noodle. The noodle in the illustration is too short on purpose so not to waste space.
2. You cut the noodle exactly in half from end to end.
3. Now you apply a rubber silicone adhesive (it's all thats available to me) to the outer surface of one of the two halves, but leaving a clear strip down the middle.
4. Put the two halves together, the opposite outer surfaces together.
5. Pinch the edges of the two halves together, so that the outer surfaces are flat and completely touching each-other. Because the inner surface is not as wide as the outer surface, you should get he slanted edge effect when putting the outer surfaces together.
6. Keep them together until the adhesive dries (rubber silicone dries quickly, but takes a long time to cure).
7. Once that's done, you should be able to thread the core of your sword down the middle of the two halves where you didn't put any adhesive in the third step.
8. It would look better it the tip of the blade were rounded off. The idea I had was to cut it to a roundish-point from the flat and edge sides.
9. The basic idea is to round the sides of the edge into each other at the tip.
A further idea I had was to maybe coat the whole blade in a mixture of rubber silicone adhesive/sealant and silver/grey acrylic paint to make it seem more realistic.
While most texts I've read talk about using latex, I've been completely unable to find anything even remotely similair anywhere nearby. The reason I'm thinking of using rubber silicone adhesive/sealant is because when it cures it remains very flexable, rubbery and quite soft, and also because thats all thats available to me
Any suggestions? Comments? (Constructive) Critisms?
Joined: May 07, 2003 Posts: 97 Location: Kentucky, USA
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:53 pm Post subject:
When I was researching latex weapons I read an article that someone from finland had written where they said that they tried the adhesive/sealant mix and that while it worked it did not hold up well in rough environmental situations or under sustained use.
Nolan is right, the pool noodle thing won't physically do what you want. You can however carve (whittle) them. We have made several different weapons (often coreless) from pool noodles. I think our favorite is a foam mug. Come on, who hasn't wanted to smash an unsuspecting PC or NPC in the head with a mug?
Joined: Mar 14, 2004 Posts: 121 Location: the Netherlands
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:54 am Post subject:
The cores are commonly glassfibre, and right now I am experimenting with methods to bend a glassfibre core to make curved weapons. We'll see how that goes.
Foam bedrolls is usually our cheap option when contructing weapons, they are easily available and cheap. For the higher quality stuff we usually buy large quantities of professional foam from manifacturers in the Netherlands.
To glue the foam together we use Bisontix, a glue that is fairly common here. In a weekend of frenzied weapon making three big containers usually get used up. You glue both sides of the stuff you want to make stick, wait 10-15 mins, then press it together. Making it all stick properly is the biggest problem, usually and the one bit where we are the most careful: if the weapons core does not stick to the foam it'll break easily and you'll have an unsafe weapon in two or three events.
In the point of the weapon, where the core stops, we put a small piece of cloth. This is to prevent too much stress on the point and to prevent the core from tearing through the foam on the tip, creating an unsafe weapon.
Then we carve the weapon into shape and add any ornaments. Hot irons are great to make decorations in foam, making it look quite detailed with little effort.
Latex we can usually get in any hobbyshop, and we generally mix it with water-based paints. Hobbyshops also stock the paint, but for our special Druchii group we used Citadel Colours on the weapons for the proper look
First we put a layer of Bisontix on the weapon (to make the latex stick better), then we usually we add two layers of colourless latex to the weapon, after which we do about five layers of latex in the colour you want the weapon to be.
Talconpowder, isoflex and/or siliconspray are used to protect the latex from moisture and wear, and with regular maintanace with siliconspray the weapon should hold up pretty well. Mine have survived close to 40 events.
Goodluck,
Sander _________________ Whoever said "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder" never played D&D
I have read with interest these conversation. I have come across similar several times all over. This usually starts in the middle (weapons, how should they be build) and leads to an argument/disagreement - even though the question is larger. Get ready, this is about to get long and tedious...
---
First off a couple principles I have established (version 0.8 beta ;-)
Mostly common sence and points that have and will be said (saves time, no need for repetition):
1. A larp can in theory use any kind of type and level of simulation. Of course this is limited by:
a) common sence,
b) law,
c) national and local/group larp culture,
d) national and local/group standards,
e) what is available/easily done
f) what kind of game,
g) what kind of players (what can they handle or want).
2. Safety is relative. Never is anything safe, only "reasonably safe" and/or "safe enough". "Safe enough" is relative to many things (not just weapons): rules, general fighting style, simulation speed and force (simulation level) and what (if any; mandatory or voluntary) protective gear is used.
3. Safety of weapons and fighting are not separeate issues. Not going into general game safety here, (fight/weapon)simulation is determined by GM and that level of simulation is considered to be "safe enough for a particular game" (which may not apply for use in other games). All types of weapons need particular types of rules to achieve some level of reasonable safety. Any weapon is potentially dangerous if used in correctly and any weapon is acceptable is handled correctly (see number 1. a-f).
4. Safety in fighting comes from knowing and not being surpriced. This implies off-game knowledge: knowing what is happening, knowing how hard weapon may be used, knowing how weapon handles, being able to trust that a weapon is as soft/durable/light/etc. If something out of these (relative) parameters change drasticly, something unexpected happens and danger may occur.
5. Safety of weapons comes from their material, construct, design and similarity. A material hazard is a defect in used material or using wrong material (substitutions). In that way respectively a samurai sword is as dangerous as a boffer sword if it for instance snaps broke in the middle creating sharp shards and peaces possibly flying in every direction. A construct hazard is using improper material or putting it together wrong (not rounding the edges etc.). Design hazard is for instance a sharp or hard end of a sword and no extra softening to cover it. Similarity is crusial as no two different weapontypes should be used mixed in the same game. An obvious example is using steel swords and boffers mixed, but using latex and boffer or even two different types of boffers may be hazardous (and maybe somewhat unfair in some cases). This also applies to the example of using airsoft and paintball weapons mixed - not just melee-type of weapons.
Exception: Ballistic, range and other thrown/shot projectile weapons may have different types and constructs which seem to conflict similarity.
-------
To me it makes no difference if someone experiments with different kind of constructs, materials or designs. It ultimately leads to progress. But don't go to a game claiming it's the same kind as the rest. It may not differ much but the difference may be too much.
Ultimately it is the GM/inspector that defines how much from the set norm ("safe enough for a particular game") weapons may differ. In this (as I wrote in number 1) A GM may have what ever kind of weapons in the game - as long as all are awere of them, know how they handle, possibly have their protective gear and so on. If all agree to use certain weapons certain way, that is their right - as wise or unwise as it may be.
Unortunately there is no one right way to define a boffer weapon. It can be constructed in many ways. There are several other types of weapons also that are used for simulation. It is somewhat pointless to debate about what is a good or right kind of boffer material/construct/design - hence the generalistic theory above.
On another level my oppinion on DrowsyTroll's and Nolanvoid's swords is pretty clear (as a finnish larper, GM and national secretary of security and safety matters). Both are unsafe to be used and in contradiction with Finland's boffer standards.
More to the point I would classify them as latex weapons because they use solid fiberclass sticks as core (never mind about the origin of golf), glue their material in layers and they have no extra padding on the sharp end for thrusts. Latex is merely a finishing thouch - not a defining characteristic of its weapon construct type. They have more incommon with latex weapons than boffers and should be therefore compared to them.
Juho "StarMan" Reivo
aka.
* _________________ * Your reality is what you imagine it to be *
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: Starman, did you read my guide at all, or just generalize?
More to the point I would classify them as latex weapons because they use solid fiberclass sticks as core (never mind about the origin of golf), glue their material in layers and they have no extra padding on the sharp end for thrusts. Latex is merely a finishing thouch - not a defining characteristic of its weapon construct type. They have more incommon with latex weapons than boffers and should be therefore compared to them.
I do put soft foam thrusting tips on my weapons, and obviously you know nothing of golf, golf clubs are carbon fibre, and HOLLOW.
none of my ends are "sharp" I even go through the trouble of putting a rubber cap with some breadth so that impact is spread out should it miraculously break out of the weapon
Its a wonder how progress happens when a blind eye is turned on others' methods
Have you TRIED making a weapon with these styles? and tried in earnest?
not a half-assed well its gonna fail so im not going to try very hard attitude?
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, I'm unsure what you define pvc-piping as. It sounds like a safe, affordable choice, but looking at a hardware store a saw a large selection of platic pipes of various sizes (and various uses). Could someone tell me what the pvc-pipe used in their boffer swords looks like, it's size, diameter, colour, anything!
)
