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Shade's LARP List :: View topic - Medical Care in the USA and the rest of the world!
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: Medical Care in the USA and the rest of the world!
WE have been told by our conservative Republican media (I am a most hated Libertarian Republican BTW) that Universal Health care is a total nightmare in other nations.
YOU who do not live in the USA tell us the REAL story of your healthcare system.
My friends from England, France, and Canada tell a different story of great FREE health care.
My wife might DIE from a simple gall bladder problem.
People of the USA listen and learn... _________________ I know the pieces fit! I watched them fall away!
You can add Australia to the list of country with cheep (not free) and good Heath care.
Our only real big problem in our system is that we don't have enough good qualified doctors for the job, but that a problem due to our education system.
Like anywhere else, we have special interest groups whining about how their special interest is not getting look after.
The best way of looking at the quality of anything is the results.
Three people I know who got cancer all three where cured within the year, and none paid an additional cent.
A few friend of mine who were in a horrible car accident which two were hospitalized, both with spinal damage and one with sever brain trauma. Other than a small amount of scaring you cannot tell that both have been previously severely crippled before. Both did not pay an additional cent.
I myself was hospitalized for a skin condition. I was in and out within an hour with correct medicine and advice to fix my condition. I did not pay an additional cent.
In addition a friend of mine need a knee reconstruction which is a non life threatening procedure which he is not insurance for. He has the option of paying about 10-15% of average yearly earnings to get the knee done soon or wait about 12 months for a place on the public list.
Now as you might have noticed, I point out before hand that this is not free. In addition to Medicare I have private heath insurance which is paid by myself. The total cost (including my contributions to tax and other misc) for my heath insurance is about 5% of my earnings.
The two main reason for the low overall cost is first bulk buying power. The second is that by paying the burden for health, government take the cost of health into consideration into legislation, for example the cost of allowing people to dump toxic waste into water now has a real cost to government.
Joined: Dec 14, 2005 Posts: 90 Location: Aalborg, Denmark
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:54 am Post subject:
I live in denmark... and compared to the US we are pretty "red"
As a friend of mine said, He have a good education (university) and earn pretty well.
His father got sick (bleding in the brain) and spent 2½ weeks in critical care... it cost something like 5000$ a day... thats close to a month wage pr day... If he borrowed the same amount of money from a bank, he would newer be able to pay it back...
We have a 40-50% tax rate... 25% VAT, 180% tax on cars...
(Denmark is the country in the world with the highest taxrate)
But free healthcare, free education, (all the way to and including universities)
During the two years I spent in the army, I had no problem paying 42% of my money as taxes...
When I start at university next summer I will actually get paid by the state... (and I don't pay for the education)
Atm I am unemployed. But I get money from the state... not much, but I don't starve, and still have my internetconnection...
And in 5 year, when Iam hopefully finish university, I will gladly pay my taxes.
It should be noted that we ara a small country with only abaut 6million citizens.
Larp related.
Our club get about 11000$ a year in direct money support.
The muncipality covers 75% of our rents. 40-45000$ a year
Joined: Jul 07, 2003 Posts: 606 Location: Mikkeli, Finland
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:55 am Post subject:
Well, we have free health care for people under 18, and cheap health care for adults. University students have the best system, anything from blood tests to brain surgery has a flat fee around 6-7USD. You can get -better- care with money, but the basic shyte is cheap even though you sometimes had to wait for a bit if you live in a small / a medium township. I just had a root canal work done, two times in the dentist, cost me around 70 euros. And that's the biggest bill I have managed to come up with.
(Of course we also have free education up to Master's degree with student support half given half loaned from the government and so on)
Tax rate is very close to Denmark, but it's scaled so that you pay less if you earn less. End of the last year, my tax rate was 2% since I had paid too much in the early year and I was making really few euros. _________________ Very few rules, very good games and ... Awesome food.
Joined: Dec 09, 2009 Posts: 98 Location: Philadelphia PA
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:31 pm Post subject:
and ive also been told by people who live in England,Canada that they HATE the taxes and other issues with health care in their countries. Im a Half Breed Republican and I cant stand the concept for the goverment paying for more or stepping into our lives anymore.
seriously..they will fine you for NOT having health care. giving it to undocumented immigrants. yes health care needs to be fixed but goverment run is not the answer. Also most of these countries have smaller populations and more income. Im just not for paying for people who dont work not cant work dont.
Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Posts: 1060 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject:
We have good public health care in New Zealand.
GP visits are subsidised and cheap, hospital care is free, and many drugs are subsidised. There is also the option of paying for private insurance and attending private hospitals, but my experiences with the public health system has always been very positive so I've never felt the need to buy insurance or get private healthcare.
The argument about taxes is silly. You pay taxes for roads, and anyone can use them, including the unemployed. Should roads be private? No, because it's far more cost-effective and fair to offer a blanket service to everyone. The same is true for healthcare. As others have pointed out, the government having to budget for healthcare also incentivises them to invest in the best form of health care there is: preventative health care. They don't want you to get sick, because it's miles cheaper to prevent disease than to treat it.
Some folk in the US have a confused boogy-man notion of "socialism". All government is socialism. Police are socialism (unless they're privately paid for), public infrastructure like roading is socialism, the justice system is socialism. Socialism is a good and necessary solution to a nation's most universal needs: justice, peace, transport, well-being.
Socialism and capitalism (private ownership) exist hand-in-glove in the United States, and in every other developed nation. They go well together, because each is well-suited to a specific purpose. It is always a question of balance between them. Socialism suits services that are for the universal good of a nation, because it's cost-effective and just for government to provide universal needs that care for the nation. Capitalism is good because it encourages private endeavour, facilitating competition that leads to innovation and wealth generation.
When it comes to healthcare provision, there are numerous examples of developed countries around the world (in fact, most countries except for the US) where public healthcare has been shown to be very cost-efficient, effective, and just. It seems hard to call the US health system any of those. It's very expensive, only effective for those who can afford it, and many people miss out entirely making it quite unjust. For such a Christian nation, it's amazing how many have a "if I'm okay, the system is okay" attitude rather than one of caring for fellow men. Look at this Haiti situation - is anyone saying you shouldn't help them because they don't pay US taxes? Compassion shouldn't just be for the poor in other countries.
It's perhaps worth noting that this isn't some standard view here in New Zealand, it's just my personal way of looking at it. Most people here would never associate the word "socialism" with our government or yours because the word has attracted some of the same stigma here that it has in the US. Capitalism has a stigma of greed, but is generally seen as something that works, and socialism has a stigma of over-controlling idealism, of the sort that failed in the USSR. Greed (to the detriment of all others) and over-controlling idealism are very real risks associated with the extremes of those approaches, but in practice, in the modern world, socialism and capitalism in moderation are the foundations of our societies, and the only decision is how to apply them to each issue in society. In the case of healthcare, there are plenty of examples of a more socialised approach working very well in many countries.
Joined: Dec 09, 2009 Posts: 98 Location: Philadelphia PA
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:14 am Post subject:
The Tax issue at least for me is not a boogey man problem as you say. My taxes will go up ALOT. forcing people to carry insurance or face fines is not right. A family of 4 in the US who makes between 50-60k a year is going to see taxes go up 15%. The Goverment has yet to explain where this money is coming from, and the talk of taxing the "rich" more is silly.
The US goverment in the last 12yrs has been a joke stepping more and more into the average persons life. I frankly do not want them involved in my health. Why must the goverment take care of every little matter that comes along. People in the United States are becoming whiney spoiled children looking to their parents to fix every problem
No public schools.
No Police Force
No Roads.
No Court System.
No Fire Department
Hey we got rid of socialism! Now my stupid uneducated kids don't even know the house is burning down not that it maters now no one can put it out, not that they could even drive over here as there is no roads. Can't sue anyone because there is no court system, I will now go kill someone and not worry as there is no court system and no police. Glad we got rid of all that socialism!
On health care the only winners are the insurance companies. Notice that there was an ALL OUT MEDIA ATTACK against universal health care. Notice that the stocks of the Insurance companies went through the roof when the democrats sold out and the GOP helped. Now we are going to get FORCED INSURANCE!
SO FAR, They still until 2014 will be able to deny pre-existing conditions.
The Dems and the GOP have sold us out time for a 3rd party. _________________ I know the pieces fit! I watched them fall away!
Joined: May 21, 2004 Posts: 221 Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:35 pm Post subject:
I have no idea why people have such a bad notion of socialism. Take away the police, courts and fire dept and lets see how people like that. They won't. They would complain that the government abandoned them or some such.
Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Posts: 1060 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject:
I agree that complete socialism doesn't work. Take away all private ownership, and you take away a lot of what engages and motivates most people. EDIT: and I'd say it's not a wonderful idea in theory, it's a crappy idea. Who wants to own nothing of their own? Not me.
Complete capitalism doesn't work on its own either. Without the socialised justice system, capitalism would fail because capital markets need rules. Take away the socialised justice system but leave the competitive element, and what you get is strong-eats-weak a la Lord of the Flies, not actually capitalism. That's what we had for thousands of years in most historical societies, and it's the combination of capitalism and socialism under democracy that seems to have pulled us out of that and into more civilised societies in the last few centuries.
Both capitalism and socialism clearly do work in a moderate form, and are present together in all developed nations. Socialism works for justice, policing, roading, and so forth. And it works for healthcare, as is clearly demonstrated in most developed countries. It's not perfect, but neither is the private approach to healthcare, there will always be some delays and mistakes for people to complain about in healthcare, regardless of how it's funded. But a public approach is much more cost-effective and just.
Joined: Dec 09, 2009 Posts: 98 Location: Philadelphia PA
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject:
Ryan,
I agree with everything you say up till the health care bit but your argument is well stated. And I will agree to disagree with you.
One of the reason I am so against health care and alot of what is being put forth by the US Democratic party is simple
I live in Philadelphia a city who has not elected a non democrat in over 50 yrs. we are a large city well over a million people with less the half of the people paying taxes in the city, most of which is concentrated in three areas of the city we pay I think if I remember correctly 70% of the city taxes, property, and wage ( yes the city taxes our wages even after the state and federal goverment and sales taxes). The people paying most of the taxes uses less the 10% of the city services. How is this fair? I fear it will be the same with healthcare.
But please I am enjoying this conversation honestly and I like hearing about how other nations are doing things.
Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Posts: 1060 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I live in Philadelphia a city who has not elected a non democrat in over 50 yrs. we are a large city well over a million people with less the half of the people paying taxes in the city, most of which is concentrated in three areas of the city we pay I think if I remember correctly 70% of the city taxes, property, and wage ( yes the city taxes our wages even after the state and federal goverment and sales taxes). The people paying most of the taxes uses less the 10% of the city services. How is this fair? I fear it will be the same with healthcare.
Feeling like you have no vote because the area you live in is dominated by one party is awful. Here in New Zealand I used to live in an area that was highly conservative, and my vote in the opposite direction essentially meant nothing. Then the whole country changed to proportional representation. Now every vote counts, because everyone gets to vote directly for who they want and it doesn't matter where you live. In US terms, this would mean that it's the "popular vote" that decides the president. I highly recommend this approach. However, I fear that it will take a long time for the US to change, because you folks are so proud of the good things in your system and its great heritage that you're a bit blinkered to the bad stuff that need improvement. Here in NZ, if a small party gets more than 5% of the popular vote, then they get represented in parliament. As someone who votes for a small party, this means that my vote means something. It's not an institutionalised two-horse race.
I can't really speak to the situation you describe in Philly, I don't know anything about the city or the politics there. But it seems to me it would make more sense for welfare to be handled at a state and/or federal level than at the city level. That way things get more evened out than what you're describing. That sort of logic goes for public healthcare too - it can doubtless be done well or done badly. I sure hope it's done well for you guys, and that cities that have a lot of poor get evened out by those that have a lot of rich across a state or federal system.
There are two ways of looking at welfare. One is that people who are relatively well-off are paying for non-workers, and that seems unfair. That's looking at the redistribution of wealth, and saying "why must it be redistributed?", which I gather is what you're doing.
The other way is to look at the current distribution of wealth, rather than it's re-distribution. Wealth is usually distributed according to the 80-20 rule, which means that 20% of the people have 80% of the wealth. 20% of the people also usually have 80% of the land. And I might point out, that wealth and land is often inherited. So, I would look at this situation and say "that seems a bit unfair, I can be born into wealth and privalege and a good education, or born into poverty and more limited opportunities". Of course the poor can become rich through hard work and luck (it's the American Dream, no less), but they often don't. And I'd say they often don't because their poor environment is less good at preparing them to get rich so than a rich environment.
The point being? When I look at the 80% of people who get by on 20% of the wealth, I feel a certain amount of compassion. I'd like to see them get better education and opportunities. I wouldn't like to see them dying of hunger and disease. I would like to live in a society that provides all its people with a safety net. And not a net that's strung inches above the ground, so that when they fall into it they bang against hard earth, but one with enough height that they can live humanely and have the opportunities they need to prosper. I don't want to see poor babies dying for lack of healthcare, not in my society, not really in any society, not while millionaires are throwing away wealth like it's water. And I think that society and government, when designed well, can fix this problem.
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